Author Topic: Changelog 12/07/2013  (Read 6887 times)

Wilku

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Re: Changelog 12/07/2013
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2013, 13:50 »
Remember Fallout:Tactics, anyone? It worked pretty well in TB, I believe one FA action cost 15 AP there. So effectively 1,5 turns per FA with AG 10....
The player would perform the action, loose all AP for this turn and missing points get drawn from the points in next turn, technically similar to the red negative AP we already have with KOs and KDs. I don't think that would be overpowered, because the medic also still needs points to move to his patient unless healing self. What exact amount of AP it should cost, would have to be trial-and-errored, until it is fair and yet a considerable alternative to stims.
Erm but in Fallout Tactics medics are able to use First aid kits and heal even more but in FO2 FA work very randomly from 30-180 and my skill is around 240%
imho We should leave this FA thing alone and let Devs decide
[...] This is not 2238/TLA clone. [...]

Rascal

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Re: Changelog 12/07/2013
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2013, 14:07 »
fa should be more cinsistant
   

   

Malice Song

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Re: Changelog 12/07/2013
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2013, 14:31 »
This might be one of the stupid questions a topic like this brings up, but does FA actually need any sort of cooldown in TB besides one time use per turn?

Serious question, because FA efficiency is already limited by skill and currently LK. If the competing alternative to FA are super stims (at least I am under the impression they are) and First Aid books were removed, you'd have to make some form of investment in your build to match SS one time use efficiency and SS would on paper still be superior in that specific case due to the possibility of ramming several per turn up your veins. I get the idea of pairing skill and AP cost / turn cooldown, however as far as I can tell given the choice between using SS for a guaranteed 100 and using FA with 135 skill / 6 LK, the latter would already be a gamble due to unpredictability. And right now cooldowns on FA are short enough that stalling (and that's the core issue here, not that it was overpowered beyond reason, right?) leads to a 1 FA / turn situation more often than not, anyways, from what I can tell.

Wouldn't a situation where a char could either FA insanely well while sacrificing offensive power to a degree or vice versa present an extra trade-off choice that'd be beneficial to build diversity?

Serious question, I am fully aware that I might be insanely biased here and I don't know how "the other side" has been feeling about TB FA efficiency over the last week.

Blackeyed

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Re: Changelog 12/07/2013
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2013, 15:08 »
cd not depended from seconds but probably froms turns
Be careful with this, why? 2 friend respawn, go to ecounter, start "fight" in tb, and fast skip turn to Cd Fa. It's possible :S Or this cooldown is only for fight in Ecounters/Town in Rt, so don't problem.

How about just prolonging or outright freezing the timer when your character is in TB?

just define nº of seconds a combat turn has, and cooldowns (or just FA AND Doc*) advance only those seconds each turn. although to avoid the abuse Beret mentioned, maybe just totally freeze.

* because we need Doc in TB too. i see no "roleplay" or technical reason for it not to work, and also it avoids having almost only crippler snipers in TB. FA is replaceable by SS, Doc  is not.

BLDYMSS

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Re: Changelog 12/07/2013
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2013, 15:36 »
fa should be more cinsistant
exactly. unless I misinterpreted the typo ;)

I wish ALL skills had a widespread and proper use in this game. But since FA could be combat-relevant, I guess it would be the most popular one to begin working on.

Like I said. Make FA consume AP in TB and RT (12-15 would be my guess for a good amount). Let it heal significantly better than SStims. Remove Cooldown completely and make use of FA kit mandatory (have one in active item slot). Make FA kits an expendable type of item, like one kit has 10 uses, or even better – refillable kit, which has to be "reloaded" like a weapon and the ammo is bandages. Also, this way botting exp with FA wouldn't be such a lucrative choice, you would need a more complex clicker script and aquire tons of bandages before you could start.
In the end the comparison FA <-> SS should result in:
FA needs more material and AP than a SS, as well as actual skill, but it's cheaper in material cost when traded, easier to craft, and heals better.

imho We should leave this FA thing alone and let Devs decide
We shouldn't leave it alone since it is an important issue. Maybe not the most important right now but still in need of a solution. Maybe split it off to suggestions for further discussion?

Malice Song

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Re: Changelog 12/07/2013
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2013, 16:22 »

Like I said. Make FA consume AP in TB and RT (12-15 would be my guess for a good amount). Let it heal significantly better than SStims. Remove Cooldown completely and make use of FA kit mandatory (have one in active item slot). Make FA kits an expendable type of item, like one kit has 10 uses, or even better – refillable kit, which has to be "reloaded" like a weapon and the ammo is bandages. Also, this way botting exp with FA wouldn't be such a lucrative choice, you would need a more complex clicker script and aquire tons of bandages before you could start.
In the end the comparison FA <-> SS should result in:
FA needs more material and AP than a SS, as well as actual skill, but it's cheaper in material cost when traded, easier to craft, and heals better.

I want to agree on most points, however, knee jerk reaction is that your proposed AP cost seems very high. As in FA will be effortlessly outdamaged by enemy gunners on an AP/result ratio. Which may be intended and thusly fine, however ideally in terms of build diversity FA would be an HP manipulation tool just like a gun is and to a certain degree comparable in performance. Otherwise you'd end up with a situation where the mandatory question in planning would be "what other skill can I augment with FA", while the approach of "what skill can I augment FA with" might lead to a less than desirable build that pointlessly stands around for a third of its turns in TB, more if it wants to move.

Depends a bit on the vision for the game, if the intent is to have every player rocking at least one weapon skill and just supporting that to a certain degree with FA, crafting, OD, etc, then it's probably fine, in that case dismiss the prior paragraph (and probably about everything else I am posting).

Along the same lines I like the idea of a mandatory FA kit on paper, however that in itself is already a restriction on FA use and it seems to me we're piling those up at a very fast rate in our brainstorming, especially considering that afaik the problem with TB FA wasn't efficiency, but how it encouraged players to needlessly prolong their turns. To repeat, that stalling usually lead to one use of FA per turn and unless the majority here feel that that was too powerful, setting FA to a one time use per turn (with a reasonable AP cost of 3-5) would get rid of the problem. And if that is indeed viewed as overpowered, I'd suggest thinking about the introduction of perks that would loosen the restrictions introduced to FA/Doc, whatever they may be, so the player again has a choice to sacrifice offense for support capabilities. Raining down restrictions that apply to all builds without a way to circumvent them at least partially would be strongly discouraging players from considering non combat builds, narrowing down the list of viable builds instead of expanding it. Or to put it more bluntly: "Make FA consume AP in TB and RT (12-15 would be my guess for a good amount)." on its own would already curbstomp a pure medic into oblivion and that sort of build isn't exactly popular to begin with (a fact that may actually be seen as supportive to radical changes like that, but I'm somewhat hoping it won't be).

Also as it stands now there aren't a lot of ways to legitimately level on FA, introduction of mandatory FA kits would remove a major one, the respawn, from an already miniscule list. Obviously that could be adressed in that process, just making sure it's not overlooked.

BLDYMSS

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Re: Changelog 12/07/2013
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2013, 17:24 »
My thoughts on the non combat skills revolve around something like: "Why should only be combat be lucrative in terms of getting xp?" and "Why shouldn't non combat skills have their tools aswell"

Well maybe the suggested AP were too much, like I said this has to be actively tested out. As for the Medics "tools"..
It could have several tiers; from no-equipment-classic-magic-hand heals with lower AP requirement and lesser HP healed/lesser XP received – unto FA Kit, Field Medic Kit, Paramedics Bag with increasing healing success and XP, but also resource (bandages) consumption..

Also as it stands now there aren't a lot of ways to legitimately level on FA, introduction of mandatory FA kits would remove a major one, the respawn, from an already miniscule list. Obviously that could be adressed in that process, just making sure it's not overlooked.
Agree. Spawncamping medic "feature" would get lost..but maybe Respawn Camps could be like a seperate npc faction that employs docs and provides them with the tools to work in their camps. The more you work for the faction the better the provided tools get over time--something like that.

Whatever the solution to FA in TB will be, the skill needs to be NEEDED. Not in a sense of "No char can do without FA" but just way more possibilities to apply it in the game (anyone remember my doc quest suggestions from 2238?)

Also while we're storming and throwing ideas here: What if FA was a skill like Barter? Wouldn't that at least solve the bot problem? (for everything but FA ofc :P)